Special Guest: Larry Shushansky, Author of Independent Enough: A Book About Relationships

Hi I'm Len Epp from Leanpub, and in this Leanpub Frontmatter podcast I'll be interviewing Larry Shushansky.

Based in Providence, Rhode Island, Larry is a psychotherapist with over 35 years' experience in social work and counselling, and speaking publicly about a wide range of subjects, how we have the power to have the kind of relationships we want. His work has been featured in venues like The Chicago Tribune, The Boston Globe, Fast Company, and many others.

You can follow his on Twitter @LarryShushansky and check out his website at independentenough.com.

Larry is the author of the book Independent Enough: A Book About Relationships. In the book, Larry talks about the "Independent Enough" process, and how it was developed over the years and shared with people of all kinds of backgrounds, from individuals to groups at schools and universities, community hgroups and private companies.

In this interview, we’re going to talk about Larry's background and career, professional interests, his book, and the importance our own personal independence has for our relationships with other people.

So, thank you Larry for being on the Leanpub Frontmatter Podcast.

Larry: You're welcome Len, and thank you for having me. I appreciate that a lot.

Len: I always like to start these interviews by asking people for what I call their origin story. I know you have a pretty developed one, and it's a big question - but I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about where you grew up, and how you first became interested in social work and psychotherapy?

Larry: Sure. I was born in Norfolk, Virginia - a southerner. And during the summers we would go to Virginia Beach, and I remember playing on the beach from early in the morning until dinner time - and it was just a wonderful, wonderful time.

The problem was, is - my father was abusive. He used to hit and beat me pretty often. Not my sisters or my mother, but somehow he had it out for me.

So when I finally graduated high school and went to college, I was really a shell of a person. I was extremely immature. I had a hard time manoeuvring through any kind of situation, and worked my relationships - while I had a lot, they were just not quality or good relationships.

When I hit 20 in 1971, I started to do a lot of alcohol and a lot of drugs. I remember the first time I stuck a needle in my arm. The rush was just so intense, and just so quick, that I had to stand up and run to the sink in my dorm room, and just throw up.

From there, I just kept using and using and using - until I finally quit school. I quit or dropped out or flunked out, it's kind of hard to know.

But at that point, there was a draft lottery. My number was 51, and I went into the service for six years. When I got out of the service, I went back to my home town and went back to a local university, Old Dominion University.

I wanted to do some service, I wanted to do some volunteering. I was driving my car one day, and this advertisement for volunteers at a rape crisis center came up. just thought I'd give a call. It didn't even strike me that I was a male walking into a mostly female organization.

But they were open-armed about it. From there, I did a 12-week training, and I just fell in love. I mean, it just grabbed me. It was hard work, it was difficult. It was heart-wrenching and really just - I don't know any way to say it other than that, but I loved it. I really did, I was drawn to it.

From there, I got my undergraduate degree. I went to graduate school in social work, and specialized in family therapy, and did a lot of couples and a lot of relationships. And for years - maybe about 30 years or so - I tried to write about it. I tried to write articles. I wrote what I thought was books about it. I wrote poems about it. I mean, you name it. I went to workshops. I even went overseas once and did a conference, a writing conference. I had two writing coaches, but I never ever - like never could publish anything. Never got anything published in 30 years.

And then in 1990, I was diagnosed with hepatitis C, which was a virus that came from my drug abuse, came from the needles that I used. I'd been carrying it around for 20 years not even knowing it. It made me fatigued, and I was depressed, and I wasn't clear-thinking - but I didn't realize what that was all about. It just kind of felt natural to me.

At that point I stopped using everything. I haven't had a drink or any kind of substance in 30 years.

My idea was that if I could stay alive long enough until they could find a cure, then I'd be all set. And so I stopped substances, like I said. I ate better. I exercised. I got into my spirituality and expanded that.

My buddies said that I was just nuts. They said, "Man, you're just going to die from this." I don't have very understanding buddies, but you know how we rib on each other? But that's what I did.

Three years ago, I was put in a phase three trial, after having been in two trials - Ribavirin and interferon, which - one of them almost killed me. They had to stop the treatment, it was so bad for me. But three years ago, I was put in this phase three trial - and it was like, boom - within weeks I was cured. It was gone.

It was like I could think clear, I had energy, I wasn't tired anymore, I didn't take naps. I get goose bumps when I even talk about it. It was just like - it was like knowing myself for the first time. It's like being introduced to myself for the first time. It was like a miracle. I don't know any other way to explain it.

Within a couple of years, I had my first book out. Just like - boom, everything I'd been working with, on had just coagulated, and came together like this. That's how I came up with the book. And I've been talking about it, and going to places and doing podcasts and radio ever since. So that's my story.

Len: It's such an amazing story, thank you for sharing that. There's a lot to unpack there, including something you sort of went over rather quickly - which was being drafted to serve at the time of the Vietnam War.

I wanted to talk a little bit about that. I actually listened to a couple of your interviews that you did on the radio, preparing for this interview. And there was something that actually really surprised me.

You were talking with somebody about having dropped out three times from college. And you said to the interviewer, "And you know what that was all about, right? Ha, ha, ha." And he did. But I didn't. Maybe being - I was born in the mid-70s, after the Vietnam War ended, and I grew up in Canada. So it's a little bit less familiar to me than it might be to you. But what did dropping out of university or college have to do with not getting called up for the draft?

Larry: So back then there were certain deferments. And one was - if you're in a college, you got deferred. So rich kids, kids who were in college and universities - parents could pay for, basically - you didn't have to do your service. But if you were not in school, or if you flunked out or dropped out - then you had to do your service, your number was up.

The way it worked was that they had a lottery system. It was almost like the lotteries you see on television, where they'd have these ping pong balls. They would pick a date, let's say March 23rd - and they'd stick it up on the wall, and that would be number one, right? And the second one would be June 23rd, and that'd be number two. My number happened to be 51.

What happened is, each state or each county had a draft board. And each draft board had to meet a quota with x amount of - and back then it was men, x amount of men - who they had to send to serve in the armed forces. So my draft board took everybody from one to 125. And because I was 51 - boom, I was in. That's how it worked.

Len: Okay, thank you for explaining that. I guess my misunderstanding was, I thought it was the dropping out part that helped avoid getting called up. But it was the joining back that helped avoid potentially - like if one dropped out of a college, it was joining a new college that helped one defer the draft. Okay, that was what I didn't understand.

Larry: Right - as long as you're in college, you're good to go. But again, my addiction just didn't allow me to stick it out. And I had a few options that I didn't take. One was to go to Canada. Back then though, you'd lose your citizenship.

One, I was living up in a commune at that point in the south-western part of Virginia in the Shenandoah Valley, the Shenandoah Mountains.

I had a couple of buddies who were draft evaders, and they were living so far off the grid they didn't even get mail. No electricity, no nothing - and they invited me to join them.

And then the third was - somebody gave me a doctor's note that said I had diabetes, and gave me three bottles of glucose and a load of sugar pills. And they said, if right before my physical for the induction, I would take the sugar pills and drink the three bottles of glucose, and the board could keep me for up to three days and it would still show sugar in my urine, which would show that I was diabetic.

The problem with that is - about a month before I was ready to go to my physical, a good buddy of mine had been convicted of draft evasion and he was spending five years in a federal penitentiary. And I just, that just - all the options just scared me to death. So I ended up joining the Navy, and I spent six years in the Navy.

And you want to hear the most incredible part about it? I was not a gung-ho military person by any stretch. But the amazing part about it is, after I joined - two weeks after I joined, they ended the draft.

Len: Oh my.

Larry: But I was in. And so I spent the next six years doing service.

Len: And where were you stationed?

Larry: I did boot camp in Waukegan, just north of Chicago. I was in a speciality school there in Waukegan, as well. And then I was sent to Japan, and I did the bulk of my service in Japan.

Len: I'm really curious, because it's an important part of your story - how did you manage your drug use while you were in the military, if that's something you're willing to talk about?

Larry: Well, what happened is when I finally left my last college and university, I wanted to get clean. I was just so down and out. I'd hit up anything. I remember once hitting up something, I didn't even know what it was. I found some tablets in my medicine cabinet in my dorm room, melted them down, hit them up. I was so desperate. And it just wasn't working for me.

Going up in the mountains helped me separate from the people who provided me those kinds of drugs. So I was partially on my way - if not mostly on my way, before I went into the service.

So what I did in the service was, I substituted my drug addiction for alcohol. And that's how I got through it. Because I've got to tell you, in the Navy there's a ton - just a ton of drinking, at least back then.

And so I came out of the service an alcoholic. So I battled both. And when I went back to college, periodically I'd run into somebody who had some dope and I'd use that. But it was mostly drinking. And then when I got diagnosed - like I said, in 1971 - I was in my mid-30s or late 30s or so. It just scared the weebee jeebies out of me, and I went, "Boom, that's it. I'm not using anymore."

Len: You're reminding me of a - I mean I know this is not all - there's a lot of humor in a lot of things that aren't entirely humorous. But you're reminding me - when I was in grad school, I lived in a house that was actually owned or rented by the Navy. And the main roommate I had was an officer in the Navy, and he's the only person I have ever seen actually turn green from drinking. I was like, "Oh, that's what I've read about."

Larry: We used to play cards sometimes, and there was these chiefs who had been in the service for life - like 25 years. Their claim to fame was their stomach was so big from drinking, they could actually put a beer on their [stomach and] hold it there while they played cards. It was a drink-fest.

And it's interesting - because when I came back, I was really shunned by a lot of people. People were spitting at me. People would throw things at me when they found out I was in the service. Because Vietnam was just not popular back then.

So now, when Veteran's Day rolls around, and people - because it's really hot. It's a thing now to really congratulate veterans and being proud of America, and that kind of thing.

When people come up to me, and they say, "Thank you for your service," I go, "America's no safer now than when I was in the service. Trust me, I didn't do anything at all." Because I didn't fight. I had friends who lost their lives in Vietnam. And I can remember going maybe 10 years after the service, I went to Washington and then I saw the Vietnam War Memorial.

And I've got to tell you, I - and I'm getting weepy now talking about it. I just cried. Because the service I did was nothing compared to what some of these guys and women did. They really gave their lives, in PTSD and lost limbs, and I'm in Japan drinking like the majority of the service. People went to Germany and stayed in the States and were in the Philippines and Korea, without war. And to be lumped in with people who say, "Thank you," I just think it does a disservice. So I tell people, it's, "Yeah, please don't thank me, because I didn't do anything special."

Len: Thank you for sharing that, and for bringing that up, actually. It's something that I think is rather quickly getting lost in the culture, that a lot of people went to Vietnam against their own will and a lot of people died there. And many of them disagreed with what they were doing, and came back to hatred.

Larry: Absolutely.

Len: It was not like nowadays where you get to go - like board the plane first, and things like that.

Larry: Right.

Len: It was a really serious thing.

Larry: Right. Or when you get off the plane, people cheer for you, and you have family and friends on American flights. It was nothing like that at all. And as bad as I had it - I just can't imagine people who were in the war and who fought the war, and they had to come back to that kind of mentality.

I often think that the Vietnam War created a certain social consciousness for people. So we went in - the next war, like the Iraq War and Afghanistan, and that kind of thing. I think it erased a lot of people's awareness, to be decent to veterans and to support them, as opposed to anything else. I think that's a legacy of the Vietnam War.

Len: Since we've strayed rather quickly into politics -

Larry: I'm sorry.

Len: No, no, that's fine actually. This is sort of a long set up, but I think you'll know where I'm going with this question. So, we'll be getting to your book and the Independent Enough process and concept pretty shortly.

But you've spent your career helping people with their relationships, you've got a lot of mileage. And one thing I wanted to talk to you about is - one feature of our current moment is how politics is straining relationships between family members.

Larry: Right.

Len: Basically, the way I like to think about this personally is - after high school, we basically can silo off our lives from people we profoundly disagree with, or even view as morally wicked - except for our families. It's Thanksgiving time in the US right now, and although jokes about arguments with your distant cousins or your drunk uncle at Thanksgiving are all well and good, it's actually a really serious issue.

I have someone in my family who's become a straight-up white supremacist, repeating rhetoric straight out of - I mean, I do a little bit of historical research in my work - and repeating rhetoric straight out of KKK speeches from the early 20th century. It's the same words.

Larry: Exactly.

Len: And I wanted to ask you, as a psychotherapist and former social worker who's been dealing with relationships in the US with people since the late 70s or late 80s - is there something different that you're seeing? I mean, you can't talk about people individually, but are you seeing an impact from our current politics on people's relationships?

Larry: Yes. When I was growing up in my teens and early 20s and mid- to late-20s, politics was contentious, there was no doubt. But then people would shake hands and you'd go have a beer, or you'd go do whatever you wanted to do. I remember Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill. Publicly they would just be after each other, then they'd shake hands and then they'd go have dinner. They respected each other, there was a certain friendship about it. There was a certain, "I understand it's political, I understand where you're coming from. Yes, I understand where you're coming from."

But there's no one - there's a lack of understanding. People are just so - I just came back from a trip to visit my in-laws, because they're 96 and 91. I went with my wife and my brother-in-law and my sister-in-law. And my brother-in-law and my father-in-law are opposite poles from me. I mean they're this, and I'm that. I mean they are so far right, and I'm so far left, kind of thing.

Let me try to answer your question first. So, what happens is that after a day of watching Fox News and listening to them, I went back to my hotel room and I picked up a New York Times and a Washington Post. I was reading, and it struck me that they were talking about the same events - the impeachment hearings. But it was like they were talking from two different universes. One universe had their truth and the other universe had their truth. And there was really no meeting in-between. It was just like a, "I'm stuck here and you're stuck there," kind of thing. And there's no attempt at understanding where the other people are coming from.

And so what I have tried to do in my life - is when I have political discussions, I try to - it's not so much about proving a point for me. It's about trying to understand where somebody else is coming from. I want to be connected in the way that I want to be connected. So when my brother-in-law starts yelling about his point of view, and I say to him, "Look, I want to talk to you forever and a day, but I need a reasonableness to take place here." We both simmer down, and we're both able to have a reasonable conversation. And I saw glimmers of him understanding me, and glimmers of me understanding him.

For example, he said to me once - he says, "Immigrants come over now illegally. Our grandparents came over legally." And I said, "Not mine. My grandparents came over illegally. They did everything they needed to do to leave Russia illegally, so they can enter the United States illegal." And he says, "Yeah, but they spoke English." I said, "No, my grandmother never learned a word of English." And yet they were very successful.

I tell them the story about how my grandmother owned real estate while she was over here. They used to have to go to court - my mother or my aunt would go to court with my grandmother. And they would act as interpreters to my grandmother when they had to evict somebody or something, or the city called them on the carpet because there wasn't proper maintenance on the property. She would talk to my mother in Yiddish. My mother would talk to the judge, and then the judge would talk to my mother and she would talk - my grandmother, Yiddish. And at one point the judge says to my mother, "Tell your mother if she ever learned English, she'd be a dangerous woman."

But it was this understanding - that I could give him examples of where his rhetoric was wrong. And then he was able to give me examples of how my rhetoric was wrong. And we didn't meet in the middle. We didn't move. But there was this overlap of understanding that we're not the enemies with one another, right? We don't need to sing Kumbaya. We don't need to go off hand-in-hand or arm-in-arm, but just be able to enter into some sort of reasonable conversation.

And that's what I do with couples all the time. They come in and they're arguing, and they're trying to prove points, and they're in power struggles. What they're missing is that, if you can talk with - if you imagine two points, a lower and a top. And between these two points is reason, rationale, decency, and an attempt to get the relationship to work - you can talk all day long.

But once you go over that - once you get into accusations and arguing and trying to prove points and power struggles and attacking and criticism, it's got to stop, and you've got to back away, and back down into that place of reason, where you can have a conversation. Because he's not changing my mind, and I'm not changing his, but that doesn't mean we can't understand one another.

I don't mean that in a new age-y esoteric, superficial way - I mean in a really practical kind of, "Yeah, I get it," kind of way. Does that answer your question?

Len: Oh yes, thank you very much for that. It's interesting that one of the things that people in philosophy talk about when they're talking about reason - people often confuse reason with logic.

Reason is something publicly available that's shared. And that's, I think, what you're getting at - and I'm totally with you, at how practical it is to bring things back to a space like that. Where it's like, "There's all kinds of things that are in my head, there's all kinds of things that are in your head. But between us is something shared."

Larry: Exactly.

Len: And one of those shared thing is what we call "reason."

Larry: Exactly.

Len: So let's appeal to that when we're trying to justify things or explain things.

In my experience, one thing I've found when I'm talking with my some of my friends who are on the other side - I think you and I are probably more or less on the same one - but I ask people to spell things out. I give them a chance to really spell it out. Like, "You repeated a piece of rhetoric. What did you mean by that? Can you explain it to me, I'm not familiar with that phrase? Can you go into detail about what you mean when you say x, y, z?"

And by the time you're three questions in, it's a completely different conversation.

Often - and I don't mean this in a patronizing way, because people do it back to me - but when someone helps you go three questions into your thinking, you're often thinking about something that you might have been very passionate about, for the first time.

Larry: Right, exactly right. And I think asking those questions - there's two ways to ask those questions. One is to ask those questions to catch somebody. And to go, "See, I knew you didn't know," kind of mentality.

Where the other is, to ask the question the way that you were asked the question. "Let me try to understand you. Explain it further. Where did you get that from, what's it about?" And to really dig it up and to stay in that - well, what you just said is perfect, to stay in that space of reason, as opposed to asking those questions as a way of winning or attacking the other person.

I think that's what we're missing in the dialogue now, in the political dialogue. We're missing that. I love what you just said. We're missing that space of reason in any kind of dialogue. And that's very hard to do, but that's what I strive to stay in when somebody is opposite of my way of thinking. Because it's the same thing with friends or in my marriage. I mean, if you think my wife and I are on the same page a lot of the time, it's like, we're not.

Len: On that subject, actually - that's a good opportunity for us to switch to the next part of the interview, when we talk about your professional interests more directly.

You write in your book - you share a few anecdotes of your relationship with your wife, and things that have happened - maybe that's a way into it? In one of the stories you tell, you were very sick and came home from the hospital, and your wife did something that you learned something from. I was wondering if you could maybe share that story with us?

Larry: I love that story, it's great. So, I had hernia surgery. It was late in the afternoon and I was in recovery, and all the nurses wanted to do was basically get home - it was after three o'clock. They did a seven to three shift. So my wife had to come in, she got me dressed. I was really still medicated, I was really groggy. They wheeled me out to the car, they put me in the car and she drives me home.

And she helps me up the steps, because I'm weak and I'm just woozy. She puts me in bed and she rubs the top of my head - which is bald, and kisses me and says, "I'll be back in about 20 minutes."

And she comes back, and she's got this sterling silver tray in her hand. And on the tray she's got the best china, with the gold ring around it, right? She's got a bowl with soft-boiled eggs. I love soft-boiled eggs when I get sick, just the slurp of it.

She's got this little vase with a couple of roses coming out of it. And she's got this bell on the tray as well. And she's got this bread plate, with two different kinds of bread. There is rye bread and whole wheat bread, cut into quarters with jelly, marmalade and butter. And she's got these three Turkish tea cups. One has flat soda. Because when they do hernia surgeries, they blow you up with gas so they can get in there - a laparoscopy. And the other was tea, and the other was juice.

She turns to me and she says, "Larry, I'm going to take care of you better than anybody has ever taken care of their husband." She says, "When you need anything, you just ring this bell and I'll come running." She says, "If I'm with the kids, no problem. If I hear it, I'll come running. If I'm talking to my parents long distance, no problem, I'll be there as soon as I hear that bell." She says, "If I'm in the basement two floors down doing laundry and I hear the faintest of faintest rings," she says, "I'm going to come running and taking care of you."

Again she rubs my head, she kisses me on the top of it. She walks out. At one point, I think I've died on the surgery table. It's just like, "I can't believe she's going to be that nice." So I eat a little bit, and I drink a little bit, but basically I just want to go to sleep, sso I'm ready for her to come. And so I pick up the bell and I shake it, and there's nothing coming out. I look in, and she's taken the clacker out of the bell.

It was a great moment, I can tell you that. I just looked at it. I was stunned for a while. And then I put the bell down and I picked up the tray and I went downstairs. I put everything away. I went back to sleep for about 15, 16 hours. I got up the next day, I went to work.

My buddy who lived a couple of doors down from me had the same procedure. His wife took care of him for three days. She finally came upstairs and says, "I don't care if you die, I'm not taking care of you again." She walks out, then he gets up and he goes to work. The point of the story for me, is there was a dependency in our relationship. I could not - first of all, they wouldn't have given me the procedure if she hadn't have been there. So I was dependent on her to be there. I was dependent on her to get me dressed initially. I was dependent on her to give me a ride home. I was dependent on her for that first meal.

After that, I didn't need to depend on her anymore. I could be independent enough and do what I needed to do to take care of myself. And she was astute enough to know that that's what she needed to do.

Len: The epigraph to your book is this phrase, "All conflict stems from dependency, but not all dependency creates conflict." I think it beautifully captures this idea that in order to have a healthy relationship with someone else, you need to be aware of where your dependencies are, because that's where conflicts come from.

Larry: That's exactly right. My premise is that anytime you're in conflict, tension - or the relationship is not going in the direction that you want it to go, then you're depending on somebody else for your well-being. You're depending on them to agree with you, or to do something for you, or to change a certain behavior in order for you to be okay.

And that conflict - we often get caught up in the content of conflict. He said, she said. "She said this." "He said this. I can't believe he thinks that way." "I can't believe she's treating me that way." So it's not about the conflict. Because it's not about the content.

Because at the basis of all conflict, you have dependency. So it's about taking that step back and getting the other person out of your head, and seeing what part you're playing in that conflict. And then developing yourself, developing certain characteristics and then stepping back in.

But where there's no conflict, it's perfectly fine. I mean, I have relatives that are so dependent on each other in their marriages, but it works fine. There's just not the conflict. And that's what I mean by all conflict. That's exactly what you said, that's what I mean by that.

Len: I really like how you brought up the idea of self-reflection, which plays a very important role in your book. That's something I found very appealing. Because in my sort of unstudied, just kind of hacked together way of thinking about thinking - I've always thought if you have a problem, the first place to look for the cause is in the mirror.

And that's not about blame. That's about taking control and seeing - and don't end there, the other person might be part of the problem too. But that's the place to start, is look in the mirror.

Larry: Right, no question. It's not about beinbg critical, it's not about judgment. It's not even about taking personal responsibility. Because self-reflection is not about that.

Self-reflection is about - if I get in an argument with you, Len, right? And we jam up and can't go any further - I take a step back, get you out of my head - and look at me. Because the reason - my part of having that conflict with you is the same part that I'm having conflict with the rest of the world, right?

People often come in and they say, "I don't have conflict with anybody else but my spouse." Well, that's not true. It's our baggage, and that's what self-reflection is. "Well, what baggage am I carrying," and then, "What do I need to do to change that baggage, to heal my wounds?" If that's the case.

Or to develop a characteristic. You need to be stronger or more independent or whatever it happens to be, right? "What can I develop?" But that only comes from self-reflection. And that's really difficult to do.

Len: Yes, and one of the things you write about that makes it difficult to do is - so like, let's now imagine everybody's on board. They're like, "Okay, if I've got conflicts in my relationships, that's because I've got some dependencies that I maybe haven't examined and maybe I should develop more independence towards. Okay, and now I'm on board I'm going to do some self-reflection." And all of a sudden you realize, there's a lot of selves in that reflection.

There's a lot of what you call - you use the metaphor of noise and signal. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you're getting at there?

Larry: So the noise - most times when we get into conflict, we have noise about other or self. The noise about other is blame and critical and "we know" - in quotes - that it's their fault. That's the noise about them.

Or we have noise about ourselves. "I can't believe I'm so passive." It's a lot of criticism, judgement about self, that kind of thing. That's the noise.

But that kind of noise doesn't allow for self-reflection. And I've got to tell you - anytime I have conflict, the very first thing I do is blame the other person. I mean it's so natural to do.

You were talking about politics before. I mean, look - I'm listening to these hearings today, and just the blame that gets passed around is unbelievable. I think we're in a culture - I don't know what Canada is like, but in our culture in the States, blame is as instinctual as breathing. Criticism is as instinctual as breathing. Going after the other person. Holding them responsible is like breathing for us.

And so it's really hard to clear that blame out, or that criticism or that judgement about other, or about ourself. But that's what the noise is.

In order to be self-reflective, you've got to get that out of your head. And once you get that out of your head, that sets up for the self-reflection.

Len: It's really interesting you bring up the - maybe a contrast between different countries like Canada and the United States. We've got our own problems up here, and they're different in different places in the country. Things that happen in the US seem to sort of drift over the border and then take their own form here.

But there is something going back to de Tocqueville that foreigners have noticed - that there's something special about the United States.

One thing I've often wondered about is if there's something about staging life as a competition between yourself and others, that is actually - people are competitive everywhere, but there's something about how there's this celebration of the idea that you should live your life as though it's a contest against other people.

And I've sometimes wondered if blaming and deflecting doesn't play a role in that. Not just because you're freeing yourself of some kind of drag, but you're placing it on someone else as well. So it's a sort of like double-edged sword. Well, not a double-edged sword. It's a very effective tool for getting ahead in that competition.

Larry: Oh, absolutely. I think anytime that the most important value, or one of the most important values of a country or a culture or society - is independence, and you've got to fight for it, and anything that gets in your way - you've got to beat it down, you've got to resist it, you've got to be aggressive, you've got to plough through it.

Versus the most important thing being a relationship between two people, as opposed to me being independent, right? And that when we're independent, you've got to fight more.

It becomes more - almost a survival of the fittest mentality, and that's where the competition comes from. And you're actually seen as weak when you enter into a cooperative nature, and the other person is entering into a competitive nature. You're seen as the weaker element there.

I personally think it's just the opposite. If I can stand in my own truth of cooperation - and trying to work out something with the other person for the sake of a better quality relationship, I think that's stronger.

Even if somebody's aggressive or crosses lines or is critical - if I can stand in my truth, I can usually lead most relationships in that direction. And not in an abusive, controlling or domineering way - but in a way that I stand in my own self, and I don't get ruffled. I don't move out of that place. And when I can do that, people follow.

Len: It's really interesting. You just reminded me of something, an old memory of a Twilight Zone episode from the reboot, I think in the 80s.

There was a man who was a survivalist. He had his little bunker that he was stocking up. And survivalism is - and the reason I'm going down this path is because survivalism and when the shit hits the fan kind of stuff, is actually more or less - I would say, characteristic - a more or less uniquely American phenomenon.

What the episode goes into, is that this guy has a desire to be surviving against everyone fighting him. He has a desire for this, the end times to come - and what happens is, either he sees like a nuclear explosion in the distance - and by the way, we're going back in time in this episode. In the 80s people were worried about nuclear holocaust, to anyone listening who doesn't remember that or know that. It was a very big preoccupation for about 30 years in people's imaginations in the West.

And so, for whatever reason, he thinks that nuclear war has come, and he locks himself in his bunker. And over time, he hears various noises outside, but he's going to be tough and he's going to survive. So he doesn't open the door.

And then the big reveal at the end of the episode, is that a nuclear bomb did go off, but they covered the site with a big huge dome - and there he is buried under that dome, with the beautiful world going on - including his family, alive around him. But he won't leave his bunker.

There's something so pathetic and weak about this vision of strength, that's actually all about - I personally think it's actually like survivalism is actually a projection of the way a person is living morally.

That's actually how they are living their life.

Larry: I can see that.

Len: And tag everyone else as a threat, antagonistically. When you put yourself in that kind of existential situation, it's a way of casting off the burdens of morality and ethics and connection to others. Because if your life's at stake, then presumably anything goes. So you can just leave all that human baggage behind you.

Larry: Right. And it becomes easier. You can be more focused and centered on that road, and not get caught up in the ambiguities and the soft spots and the rounded spots of a relationship.

It so misses the point. Because I think every relationship has that, "Man, I don't know what's going on here." Or that, "Gosh, I don't understand this." Or, I believe that in most intermittent close relationships - whether it be friendships or intimate partners, that you never solve issues. They evolve over time.

Like in the book, you mentioned the book, about my wife and I going to sleep together. 35 years - and every time we think we solve it, it pops back up. But it doesn't [?] like it did the first year of our marriage, or the 10th year or the 20th, or even the 30th year.

And that evolution cannot take place, with the kind of mindset you just described. You stay stuck. There's no movement. I think well-being and happiness and quality of life is about movement. And that man in the bunker can't move. He is stuck. And the beauty is, like at arm’s length, all he's got to do is go out. But he's so stuck in this that he can't move forward. That's a great metaphor, that really is. I'm glad you brought that up. That's a wonderful story.

Len: Speaking of wonderful stories, you just invoked one yourself that you talk about in your book. About how your wife - I think you go to bed early, and your wife goes to bed late.

Larry: Right.

Len: And one of the things you talk about is how this will always be an issue. And if I understand correctly, you have what many people might think of as a surprising view of compromise, and whether the conventional view of what a compromise is, is actually a good thing or a bad thing in a relationship. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that?

Larry: I think compromise is a short cut to that self-reflection, to really hashing out a relationship. It's like a survival kind of thing.

And it's a legal issue. Compromise is, "I'll give up something I don't want to give up. You give up something that you don't want to give up, because we can't work this out."

The problem with that is that if I compromise with my wife and I think I'm doing my part, I'm going to be watching her to make sure she's doing her part. So compromise actually creates mistrust, as opposed to anything else.

In the context of that story about going to sleep together - after five years of marriage, I say to my wife, "We need to compromise." She says, "Okay." So we sit down and we decide that I will come to sleep early three days a week. And she'll come to sleep with me. And three days a week, I'll stay up late with her. And the seventh day, it was Saturday night - we never had to worry about it.

So the very first time we tried to initiate that - I go to sleep early, she stays up late - we argue the next morning about whose turn was first. Because compromise is about giving up something you really don't want to give up. And it doesn't evolve a relationship forward.

It's one of the myths that we live with, that I think is really tragic in relationships. You see these memes, or you see people professing all the time, "I'm in a good relationship because we compromise." Well no, you're in a good relationship because of other reasons - but it's not about compromising.

Compromising doesn't work. I have never - over the years, the few times I've got into spats with contractors or whoever I got in spats with - and you've got lawyers involved, and they compromise. You walk away just feeling so angry about it. Because you didn't get what you really felt like you needed to get.

So that's my shtick on compromise. And it's very hard to get across to people, because we have always been taught that one of the key elements of relationships is compromise - and I just don't buy it for those reasons.

Len: I think that's such a great story and explanation for a couple of reasons. One is that often people find it hard to talk about things that seem kind of mundane or trivial, even though they might have huge impacts on their lives and their relationships. And so something about like when you go to sleep - if that's the big thing in your relationship, then that's a big thing in your relationship. Don't pretend it's not.

Larry: Then don't be quick to solve it.

Len: Yeah, and except that maybe this might be a problem that you're going to have forever. But also that - it's just so compelling to me, the explanation. That when you introduce a compromise of this kind, you're introducing a new problem.

Your old problem is there, but now you've got a new problem - which is you've got this compromise that you've got to surveil and maintain and remember - and spell out and stick to. So it's probably one step back, not a step forward, when you're doing something like that.

Larry: Exactly. At this point, you're putting one problem on top of another problem.

Len: The last question I guess I'd like to ask you about that is a bit cheesy. But for anyone listening who's having trouble in say - let's say a married relationship, what would be the number one thing you've learned in all your time spent thinking and talking about this to people? That, if it was a total stranger and you didn't know what their problem was - and you only had a minute to give them some advice, what would you say?

Larry: I would say that they can create the kind of relationships they want, regardless of what their spouse or partner is doing. All they've got to do, and it's difficult - is take a step back, become self-reflective, stand in that truth, and step back into relationship over and over and over and over and over again. That's what I would say to them.

But most people believe that, "The only way I can have a good relationship is if the other person changes." And it's just not the case.

So my one minute shtick is create what you want. Don't do it abusively or domineering, don't try to pull somebody - do it through self-growth. Do it by developing those characteristics you need to develop to have the kind of relationship you want. If you want a loving relationship, be loving. Or maybe if you want a loving relationship, learn how to set a limit.

Loving relationships, like I said before, isn't just about Kumbaya or holding hands or flowers or any of that. It may be saying, "Knock it off. Stop it. I don't want that anymore." That might be a loving relationship as well. So that's what I would say in a minute to somebody.

Len: Thank you very much, that's a really great answer.

Okay, so moving on to the last part of the interview where we usually talk about the person's experience as an author and a writer.

You've already told us a little bit about your story, about how you came to a place where you wrote the book. One of the things I wanted to ask you about, that is a preoccupation of self-published authors, is building their platform. Getting attention and doing this over time.

And so you've been making the rounds, as you mentioned earlier - you're doing radio and podcast interviews and things like that. Do you have a strategy for how you approach that? So for example, do you say, "I want to do two shows a week, or something like that?"

Larry: This process of writing a book has been one of evolution for me, personal growth. I was talking to a professional writer the other day, and I said to him, "How can I get national? What am I missing about this? What am I not doing right?" And he gave me this, "You've got to write a 10 page -" Whatever I've got to write. "And you've got to do it professionally, and you've got to get that out." That kind of stuff.

But what I found is that it's not in the particulars, what I need to do - it's in my own self-growth. So that when I try to do - for example, for years I tried to do my own marketing. I'm not a marketeer. I can't do it. So I try to get a team around me, is what I do.

I'll tell you how I got - I'm working with a marketing firm now. I'll tell you exactly how I did it, it's a great story.

After about a year of trying to market myself, I finally look in that mirror, I finally get that self-reflection. I go, "Larry, you don't like cold calls. You don't like to do this. You've had no success. Give it up, reach out into the world. Grow into that. Turn over some stones. Connect with people that you feel uncomfortable with that can do that work for you." That was my growth.

So I go online and I find this fancy, really good website. It's this marketing firm that does large national/international kind of marketing. And I go to myself, and I say, "No, you never can afford this man. Just give it up". And I go, "No, that's the old Larry that gives up before you even try," right? So, again - it's that taking a step back, and it's developing myself. I said, "I'm going to fill in the contact page," right?

The next day, the owner of the marketing firm - there's like 70 people in this marketing firm, they're based in Boston and Rhode Island. He calls me and he says, "Larry, this is Chris [?]." I said, "Chris." He says, "I used to teach your son tennis." And before you know it, he gives me this discounted rate. Because we've known each other, and he knows I can't afford his highest rate that he charges most people. He gives me this discounted rate.

And I say to him, "The only problem - I really appreciate you doing this discounted rate for me," I said, "But I don't want a discounted service." He says, "Not a problem, we've got you covered." And so for the last year, that's how I'm doing this. It was me reaching out in a way that I had never reached out before, to a place that had quality.

Before, I wasn't reaching out to quality, because I didn't think I could afford it, I wasn't good enough - all those other kinds of things in my mind. And yet I stepped forward with it, and I'm still working with him. That's how they find you.

Len: That's a really great story, thank you for sharing that. And it's a good lesson to people. I mean, easy to say, hard to do?

But, and there's a number of features there - one of which is realizing about yourself that you - there are things, if you don't like doing them, forcing yourself to do them is - I mean, if you really have to, I suppose.

But - and this is actually something that a lot of people talk about in self-publishing blogs, is - marketing's really important. If you don't, if you're bad at it and you don't want to do it - find another way. It doesn't mean don't do it, but like, don't do it yourself.

Larry: It took me almost two and a half years to find this marketing firm. I tried individuals that didn't work. I tried lesser firms that didn't work. I tried to reach out to family. I had tried everything, until I went, "This is not working". It's an evolution.

Len: This is the last part of the episode where we really get into the weeds, but did they set up your website for you? Because you've got a really good, professional website.

Larry: I had set up the website with a professional developer. And they have added to it, subtracted from it, enhanced it - so that's part of their marketing, yes.

Len: And so one thing, one decision you've made - pricing is a big decision for anything that you're selling. You've got a print version of your book available on Amazon, for I think about 15 bucks or something like that? There's a Kindle version for a few bucks. But you also have the Kindle version available for a free download from your website.

Larry: Right.

Len: Why did you decide to make that last decision, to make it available - one of the options is to get it for free?

Larry: It's also on audio. You can get it in an audio out of Amazon as well.

The freeness of it for me is that -- I read a book years ago about writing, and writing books and publishing. And one of the things that stuck in my mind really intensely was that - you don't write a book for the sake of writing a book. You write a book because you believe in what you're doing and what you're writing about that.

I mean you're in it - it becomes you, you become it - it's like a mission, almost. It's your purpose. It's a meaning in life.

And so my purpose, I have found out through writing this book. Because I initially wanted to be an author. That's what I did for 30 years, trying to write. And I wrote poems and haikus and novellas, and nothing ever got published.

Through the writing of this book, I realized, "I don't want to be an author. I want to get the word out about relationships." Because I really believe that what I have either stumbled on, or what I've developed over the years is really a better way of doing relationships.

So if somebody can't afford the book, it's a free download. Sometimes when I do conferences, I'll give out 150 books to people - just take them if you want to read it, kind of thing. That's why I do it for free, for people that can't afford it.

In my own private practice, because I still run a full-time private practice - I do about - it used to be maybe 15% of sliding scale. I see some people for free who really can't afford it. Some people for $5, some people for $25 and $50. But now it's up to almost 40% of the people are on a sliding scale, just because of healthcare and the expense, and insurance is not covering it and people who are on Obamacare are now - they can't afford it, and so they don't have any insurance.

Again, I don't want to sound saintly. Because, trust me - and you can ask my wife, I'm anything but saintly, right? But I just want to get the word out, more so than anything else. That's why it's a download for free.

Len: That's a really great explanation. You reminded me of - there's an old line from the poet, Samuel Taylor Coleridge - who said, if you find yourself attracted to writing poetry, you need to ask yourself if you want to write poetry, or be a poet. And if you want to be a poet, stop writing poetry.

Larry: That is absolutely perfect. That's exactly right. That's perfect, I love that.

Len: Thank you very much. I think that might be a good note to end on. I really thank you for taking the time to do this podcast and for being so forthcoming, in sharing all the valuable information that you've learned, and your life story as well.

Larry: You're very welcome. And I - this is one of the best podcasts, you're a tremendous interviewer, and you're so into the conversation when we're talking, that I've really enjoyed this a lot. So thank you for being on your end of this.

Len: Thank you very much for saying that, I really appreciate that.

Larry: You're welcome, absolutely.

Len: Thanks.

And as always, thanks to all of you for listening to this episode of the Frontmatter podcast. If you liked what you heard, please rate and review it wherever you found it. And if you'd like to be a Leanpub author, please go to our website at leanpub.com. Thanks.